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> History Thread, The contributions of man
vsberlina
post Oct 24 2018, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE (scoobyliscious @ Oct 24 2018, 05:06 AM) *
Piling on ... Math has a long, storied and multi-cultural history. The Greeks focused mainly on geometry (hence, Pythagoras and his eponymous Theorem, a2 + b2 = c2 for right triangles), but the Indians (sub-continent) gave us Zero, which is powerfully at the heart of modern mathematics (especially when we extend the concept in Set Theory to the Null Set), the calculus and more. And that's before we get to Leibnitz, Descartes, Newton and the invention of The Calculus and Analytical Geometry. Some of which can be attributed to the Greek tradition (as preserved through the Middle Ages by our Muslim friends in the Middle East), but much of which is entirely new.

But sure, give the credit for the entire underpinnings to one group. Because that surely has to be the answer. It's not like counting or "more versus less" are common concepts throughout human history (or, for that matter, in the natural world, where recent evidence suggests a much broader swathe of the Animal Kingdom uses some form of counting or numerical relations in their daily lives).

Quick aside: yeah, almost missed the "art" in there. Because Lascaux and similar cave paintings (which may be Neanderthal in origin) are definitely Greek. Or, not art. Which is totally not universal across human history.

Finally, if this Topic is about "contributions to modern society by cultures" and we want to pick on the Chinese, can we discuss this whole Gunpowder thing?


Where would the world be without pies, or π? Yep, we'd be in darkness. You can thank the Greeks for π.

Cave paintings next to Greek sculptures? Kids in Kindergarten paint better than Neanderthals.

The Spanish are thieves. They pinched our language. They pinched our olives. They pinched one of us (El Greco).



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BRFC
post Oct 24 2018, 02:20 PM
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QUOTE (vsberlina @ Oct 23 2018, 12:05 PM) *
without firing a bullet.

You still amuse me smile.gif Long may it continue.
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vsberlina
post Oct 24 2018, 03:00 PM
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QUOTE (BRFC @ Oct 25 2018, 01:20 AM) *
You still amuse me smile.gif Long may it continue.

The Germans did all the shooting. Friendly fire killed as many of them as it did Dutch.


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BRFC
post Oct 24 2018, 04:43 PM
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QUOTE (vsberlina @ Oct 24 2018, 05:00 PM) *
The Germans did all the shooting. Friendly fire killed as many of them as it did Dutch.

laugh.gif They probably outnumbered them 30-1, so yeah, that's pretty likely.
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scoobyliscious
post Oct 24 2018, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (vsberlina @ Oct 24 2018, 09:57 AM) *
Where would the world be without pies, or π? Yep, we'd be in darkness. You can thank the Greeks for π.

Cave paintings next to Greek sculptures? Kids in Kindergarten paint better than Neanderthals.

The Spanish are thieves. They pinched our language. They pinched our olives. They pinched one of us (El Greco).


Not even close to the most important Spanish artist. I'm more of a Goya man, or, of course Picasso (who was stolen from the Spanish by the French, but if you get El Greco, Spain can have Pablo). If you have to stick with post-Renaissance artists, what about Velazquez?

And the point of Neanderthal art isn't how good it is (technique is bound to improve over time, with better dissemination of information and training, let alone mastery of materials and technology), but that it existed loooooonnnnnnnngggg before the Greeks even thought of "civilization." Would you prefer I use the ancient site of Uruk? I suppose you think the Venus of Willendorf (dated to several millennia prior to anything near Greece, like 30,000 BCE) is too crude to count for your (completely self-serving and arbitrary) standards of art?

Finally, sticking to my wheelhouse (the mathematics stuff): I'll go on ahead and say it: π is overrated. Much like the Fibonacci sequence, it's a naturally occurring phenomenon described by strict mathematical principles. Sure, they are neat, but they aren't some kind of mystical pathway to enlightenment. It would be more surprising if we (humanity) did not find such sequences or numbers in nature, despite their out-sized importance in certain people's heads (damn those numerologists!). I mean, it's not like we created mathematics to describe the natural world, or anything like that ...

Now, pick up that microphone and plant that kiss on my back-side, you rampant cultural nationalist, you!

(side note: I intentionally avoided any Stone Age Art from Turkey, because I figured you would just claim it was the same as Greek, culturally, if not geographically. I'm curious: do you want the Greeks, as a "civilization" to honor such art, even if it, like Troy, is discovered in modern-day Turkey?)

(second side note: I could go on like this for a loooonnnngggg while. Let me know if/when you've had enough. Doesn't mean surrender, just temporary armistice in the Cultural Nationalism debate).


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Ice66
post Oct 25 2018, 02:36 AM
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QUOTE (scoobyliscious @ Oct 22 2018, 11:48 PM) *
According to the font of all human knowledge, it's fermented tofu.

And we know that fermentation, in lots of different forms ("craft" beer, kombucha, kimchi, pickling various things) is bee eye gee, BIG, in the food world these days.

Me? I actually like the original stuff, but, for me, it is more of a palette for flavor (see: sofritas from Chipotle, not that it's very Latin, but it IS tasty and tofu-based) than a mainstay flavor in-and-of-itself. And, despite the aforementioned 'Potle, I use it in conjunction with a main protein (meat-ey something) rather than as a substitute.

As for the "why," because it is, nutritionally, similar to a protein (more protein-per-calorie than beef), but at a much lower overall cost to acquire. Meat means you have to grow food to feed the meat animals, keep the meat animals (including "away from predators") and give them time to grow to a size. It's not a very "efficient" method of using biological energy. Tofu, which is soy, is quicker-to-market at a lower cost-per-energy for you, the consumer. You know, like most (maybe all?) vegetables. I am by no means a vegetarian (or sympathizer: we evolved canine teeth from our evolutionary predecessors; and they serve just the one purpose: to rip flesh asunder), but the Western diet has become far too accustomed to daily meat, when it should be celebrated as a treat and we should use more of the "whole animal" (mmm, homemade broths - and don't get me started on the joys of marrow). Or, maybe that's just my natural left-ey peaking out from the recesses of my brain.

But hey. You don't have to like everything (for example, I could do without the U.S.-staple "button" mushrooms, which have a terrible slimy texture, or the similarly textured okra) you eat; as long as you try it first (my general rule is: stuff your face first, ask what was served later - it keeps your ill-trained "ewww that's gross" portion of your brain from ruining your enjoyment of, say, 100-year eggs or grasshopper puree). You tried; you didn't like. Move on (and try to do so without a serving of hater-ade for the ingredient along the way).

I didn't expect someone that isn't Chinese to explain to people what stinky tofu is.

This is a well written piece. We should save it somewhere so someone else (like vsb and ptc) can read it and educate themselves what tofu is about. It is not a substitute to meat, I totally agree, I eat it together with my protein as well. It is also not a stomach filler, no way.

btw scoobs, I just wanted to point out it's 1000 year old eggs, not 100. incidentally, one of my most loved dishes when i was a kid was tofu with 1000 year old eggs, served cold as an appetizer. man, i would eat so much of it. it is probably more akin to Northern Chinese diet than Southern (which is what HK's cuisine is largely based on). I now find myself allergic to the 100 year old eggs, which is a pity, because i actually like eating it a lot.
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Ice66
post Oct 25 2018, 02:38 AM
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QUOTE (BRFC @ Oct 23 2018, 08:56 AM) *

beautiful. what's the stuff on the right?
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Ice66
post Oct 25 2018, 02:54 AM
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QUOTE (vsberlina @ Oct 23 2018, 10:19 AM) *
This discussion started as 'contributions to modern society by cultures'. Ice said the Chinese gave us tofu. I'm saying they can take it back. laugh.gif

i included tofu as one of the contributions and by no means the only one.

QUOTE (scoobyliscious @ Oct 23 2018, 06:06 PM) *
Finally, if this Topic is about "contributions to modern society by cultures" and we want to pick on the Chinese, can we discuss this whole Gunpowder thing?

yeah sure, you're absolutely right about this. we did, by accident, discovered gunpowder. but these are the sort of stuff where even if it wasn't for us, some other groups would have discovered it anyway. smile.gif

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Ice66
post Oct 25 2018, 02:59 AM
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QUOTE (vsberlina @ Oct 24 2018, 01:50 PM) *
Durian is best dry. Like crisps. There's no other way to eat it, unless you eat faecal matter.

Laksa. Now there's a dish. Are the Indians claiming it, cos I'm giving it to the Malaysians.

yeah absolutely, i don't like durian as well, but i know plenty that loves it. similar phenomenon with tofu.

with regards to the origins of laksa, read up over here.

still, i don't get why the need to identify and claim credit for whatever invention or discovery by any ethnic group? why does it even matter?
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Ice66
post Oct 25 2018, 03:15 AM
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QUOTE (scoobyliscious @ Oct 23 2018, 06:06 PM) *
Piling on ... Math has a long, storied and multi-cultural history. The Greeks focused mainly on geometry (hence, Pythagoras and his eponymous Theorem, a2 + b2 = c2 for right triangles), but the Indians (sub-continent) gave us Zero, which is powerfully at the heart of modern mathematics (especially when we extend the concept in Set Theory to the Null Set), the calculus and more. And that's before we get to Leibnitz, Descartes, Newton and the invention of The Calculus and Analytical Geometry. Some of which can be attributed to the Greek tradition (as preserved through the Middle Ages by our Muslim friends in the Middle East), but much of which is entirely new.

when xabi started contributing in this thread, this was what crossed my mind. the indian's contribution to math. the importance of moving from roman numerals to hindu-arabic numerals. looks like someone is really into math. i haven't come across those names in many years, since college. things like limits, functions, derivatives, and integrals... ahhh the gold old days.

QUOTE (scoobyliscious @ Oct 24 2018, 05:46 PM) *
And the point of Neanderthal art isn't how good it is (technique is bound to improve over time, with better dissemination of information and training, let alone mastery of materials and technology), but that it existed loooooonnnnnnnngggg before the Greeks even thought of "civilization."

yeah, you gotta spell out the point you're making when you're conversing with vsb. biggrin.gif

QUOTE
I'll go on ahead and say it: π is overrated. Much like the Fibonacci sequence, it's a naturally occurring phenomenon described by strict mathematical principles. Sure, they are neat, but they aren't some kind of mystical pathway to enlightenment.

again, i agree with this fully. somebody discovered something that merely describes what we see in nature. i think the discovery of earth is round for example is more of an "aha" moment than coming up with pi.
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Netley Lucas
post Oct 25 2018, 05:03 AM
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WALOR
post Oct 25 2018, 01:40 PM
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QUOTE (Ice66 @ Oct 24 2018, 10:38 PM) *
beautiful. what's the stuff on the right?


Tater Tot, you philistine


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PTC
post Oct 25 2018, 02:08 PM
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QUOTE (WALOR @ Oct 25 2018, 09:40 AM) *
Tater Tot, you philistine

laugh.gif


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PTC
post Oct 25 2018, 02:21 PM
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QUOTE (Ice66 @ Oct 24 2018, 10:36 PM) *
This is a well written piece. We should save it somewhere so someone else (like vsb and ptc) can read it and educate themselves what tofu is about. It is not a substitute to meat, I totally agree, I eat it together with my protein as well. It is also not a stomach filler, no way.

FYI. I've spent a bit of time in China, HK, Japan. I know what tofu is. Just couldn't be bothered Googling what stinky tofu is.

More laziness than ignorance. biggrin.gif



When we're done with tofu, I think we need to move to the next item on the agenda...Marmite/Vegemite.

Umami! (This will get scooby's attention.)


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BRFC
post Oct 25 2018, 04:06 PM
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QUOTE (Ice66 @ Oct 25 2018, 04:38 AM) *
beautiful. what's the stuff on the right?

That's the turnip cabbage. It was prepared sous vide and infused with 5 spices.
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Ice66
post Oct 25 2018, 04:55 PM
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QUOTE (WALOR @ Oct 25 2018, 01:40 PM) *
Tater Tot, you philistine

rofl.gif

QUOTE (PTC @ Oct 25 2018, 02:21 PM) *
FYI. I've spent a bit of time in China, HK, Japan. I know what tofu is. Just couldn't be bothered Googling what stinky tofu is.

More laziness than ignorance. biggrin.gif

if you knew, you wouldn't have to google what it is. smile.gif you wouldn't have to google what jam is, for example, would you?

QUOTE
When we're done with tofu, I think we need to move to the next item on the agenda...Marmite/Vegemite.

ugh, i've tried both, and honestly both are quite salty and falls under the category of "acquired taste".
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Ice66
post Oct 25 2018, 04:56 PM
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QUOTE (BRFC @ Oct 25 2018, 04:06 PM) *
That's the turnip cabbage. It was prepared sous vide and infused with 5 spices.

looks good - that was a Chinese restaurant?
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PTC
post Oct 25 2018, 05:07 PM
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QUOTE (Ice66 @ Oct 25 2018, 12:55 PM) *
you wouldn't have to google what jam is, for example, would you?

What kind of jam?

Bacon jam?



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PTC
post Oct 25 2018, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE (Ice66 @ Oct 25 2018, 12:55 PM) *
ugh, i've tried both, and honestly both are quite salty and falls under the category of "acquired taste".

So, you're saying it's disgusting...like tofu. biggrin.gif


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Ice66
post Oct 25 2018, 05:13 PM
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QUOTE (PTC @ Oct 25 2018, 05:08 PM) *
So, you're saying it's disgusting...like tofu. biggrin.gif

surely, you meant stinky tofu.
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