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> Brexit, Vent Your Spleen!
WALOR
post Nov 19 2018, 02:23 AM
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QUOTE (Spurs Crew @ Nov 18 2018, 10:43 AM) *
Everyone deserves a vote in things like the General Election.
But you can't possibly think that every single decision in this country should go down to a public vote.
The whole point of electing a Government is for them to make decisions based on the best interests of a country.
The average person isn't capable of making those decisions. That's why we elect people who are.
The majority of this country did not understand the pros and cons of Brexit when the referendum took place....
It's a decision that should have been made by the MPs of this country.
It's literally their job to understand this and make the decision in the best interest of the country."


So you're fine with letting the letting the scum vote, so long as they vote for the right sort of people, elites like yourself who will keep the filthy chavs in check.






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Spurs Crew
post Nov 19 2018, 06:29 PM
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QUOTE (WALOR @ Nov 19 2018, 02:23 AM) *
So you're fine with letting the letting the scum vote, so long as they vote for the right sort of people, elites like yourself who will keep the filthy chavs in check.


laugh.gif Are you even reading my posts? Doesn't seem like it.

Everyone gets a vote, which I couldn't agree with more. Everyone is also entitled to vote for whoever they like. Once an election happens, the Party that wins is representative of the will of the people. If the country is heavily Conservative, you'll get a Conservative majority. If it's heavily Labour, you'll get a Labour majority. If it's mixed, you'll get a hung parliament like we've often had in the last 5-10 years. Really quite simple. The fact is that we vote to elect someone in our constituency to make the key decisions in our best interests. Most of us have full time jobs and don't have the time to fully understand the pros and cons of these key decisions, therefore we shouldn't be making those decisions. You can't possibly think the general public should decide on the Budget do you? Let's get Joe Bloggs to decide how much we spend on Defence, or the NHS or Education. To me, Brexit is just as complicated and important as any of those things I just listed so why should it have gone to a referendum? The answer is, it shouldn't.

If the Government truly wanted the public to have a say, an election should have been called and each party could have chosen a stance on Brexit and people could have decided to vote for either party, letting their stance on Brexit influence who they voted for. Take Scotland for example. The SNP ran on the basis that they'd get an Independence referendum if they were voted into power. Enough people in Scotland wanted that and voted for them to allow it. Fine with me. Funnily enough, Theresa May tried the same thing after the referendum. She thought the Labour party was weak and she snap called another General Election to get a majority to help her pass through her awful Brexit proposals. But funnily enough, it backfired, and they lost seats. Serves her right.

Anyway, I'm done with this now. You don't seem interested in actually having a decent conversation about it, instead trying to label me as something I'm not. Oh, and I've voted for Labour more often than not since I turned 18, just FYI.
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vsberlina
post Nov 20 2018, 12:35 AM
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SC is 100% correct. We elect officials to make decisions on our behalf, then when they're too scared to make tough decisions and they don't want to be blamed, they make us vote again. Australians did the same thing with same sex marriage.

95% of the population is completely ignorant. Ministers have access to experts, and can make a far better informed decision.

I see the EPL as a 'mini Britain'. The only reason it's the best league in the world is it's diversity of players and massive world following. Imagine if they ban foreigners from playing in the EPL. Do you think the rest of the world would still follow it?
There'd be players from 4 tiers down playing in the EPL to make up the numbers. TV money would significantly diminish, shirt sales, possibly even gate prices. Then player's wages would take a beating. The lower league players probably wouldn't be worse off, and they would have the prestige of playing in the top league, but the majority in the competition would suffer.

As SC said, a generation (at the very least) is screwed, as there'll be a massive backward step and they'll have to do the tough work to try and get back to par with the rest of the world. But the rest of the world won't be static, so they may never be able to catch up.


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Spurs Crew
post Nov 20 2018, 09:47 AM
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QUOTE (vsberlina @ Nov 20 2018, 12:35 AM) *
SC is 100% correct. We elect officials to make decisions on our behalf, then when they're too scared to make tough decisions and they don't want to be blamed, they make us vote again. Australians did the same thing with same sex marriage.

95% of the population is completely ignorant. Ministers have access to experts, and can make a far better informed decision.

I see the EPL as a 'mini Britain'. The only reason it's the best league in the world is it's diversity of players and massive world following. Imagine if they ban foreigners from playing in the EPL. Do you think the rest of the world would still follow it?
There'd be players from 4 tiers down playing in the EPL to make up the numbers. TV money would significantly diminish, shirt sales, possibly even gate prices. Then player's wages would take a beating. The lower league players probably wouldn't be worse off, and they would have the prestige of playing in the top league, but the majority in the competition would suffer.

As SC said, a generation (at the very least) is screwed, as there'll be a massive backward step and they'll have to do the tough work to try and get back to par with the rest of the world. But the rest of the world won't be static, so they may never be able to catch up.


Exactly.

Personally don't see a reason to even have a referendum on something like same sex marriages to be quite honest. It should be legalised without needing one. But, I'll stop there, I don't want to go down that road on here, got in enough trouble already tongue.gif
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Netley Lucas
post Nov 20 2018, 12:42 PM
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The Referendum was a Tory manifesto commitment in 2015, they won the election so had a mandate to hold it. It still had to be passed in parliament though and was, by 544 to 53.

The people wanted it, the MP's wanted it, sounds like it was wanted.
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RAPID
post Nov 20 2018, 03:10 PM
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QUOTE (vsberlina @ Nov 20 2018, 03:35 AM) *
As SC said, a generation (at the very least) is screwed, as there'll be a massive backward step and they'll have to do the tough work to try and get back to par with the rest of the world. But the rest of the world won't be static, so they may never be able to catch up.

Sounds like the Soviet Union story and a 'try' at communism...


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Spurs Crew
post Nov 20 2018, 04:37 PM
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QUOTE (Netley Lucas @ Nov 20 2018, 12:42 PM) *
The Referendum was a Tory manifesto commitment in 2015, they won the election so had a mandate to hold it. It still had to be passed in parliament though and was, by 544 to 53.

The people wanted it, the MP's wanted it, sounds like it was wanted.


They voted for a referendum because they bottled making the decision themselves. Doesn't mean they wanted Brexit, which they don't.

You can't actually still believe in Brexit after all that's happened can you? Even you can see you were wrong surely?
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vsberlina
post Nov 20 2018, 11:09 PM
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QUOTE (RAPID @ Nov 21 2018, 02:10 AM) *
Sounds like the Soviet Union story and a 'try' at communism...

Not that bad. People aren't being murdered and wealth hasn't been taken by the state... yet.


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vsberlina
post Nov 20 2018, 11:13 PM
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QUOTE (Netley Lucas @ Nov 20 2018, 11:42 PM) *
The Referendum was a Tory manifesto commitment in 2015, they won the election so had a mandate to hold it. It still had to be passed in parliament though and was, by 544 to 53.

The people wanted it, the MP's wanted it, sounds like it was wanted.

If the politicians took it to a referendum and then went against the people's decision, they'd have looked even more stupid.

I see it as someone deciding to suicide. Just because they want it, it doesn't make it right.
There will be severe consequences, and they will be irreversible.


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PTC
post Nov 20 2018, 11:15 PM
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QUOTE (vsberlina @ Nov 20 2018, 06:13 PM) *
I see it as someone deciding to suicide. Just because they want it, it doesn't make it right.

Depends who it is.

I can think of a few people for whom I'd lend a helping hand.


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RAPID
post Nov 20 2018, 11:31 PM
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QUOTE (PTC @ Nov 21 2018, 02:15 AM) *
Depends who it is.

I can think of a few people for whom I'd lend a helping hand.

Americanised democracy rolleyes.gif


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Netley Lucas
post Nov 21 2018, 12:27 AM
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QUOTE (Spurs Crew @ Nov 20 2018, 04:37 PM) *
They voted for a referendum because they bottled making the decision themselves. Doesn't mean they wanted Brexit, which they don't.

You can't actually still believe in Brexit after all that's happened can you? Even you can see you were wrong surely?


It was to shut UKIP up, finish Farage.

Brexit has not happened and is unlikely to happen properly for a number of years, if ever. Therefor it is way too soon to say it is a failure. One thing's for sure though, all the (project fear) experts have been proved wrong about the economy, post-Ref > pre-Brexit. Despite Brexit jitters, the economy is strong and interest rates are rising, employment is high and the economy appears to be at full capacity, wages now rising!

#despitebrexit

Maybe you should trust the ordinary, decent hard-working people a little more and the self-serving politicians a little less? You never know, even you might learn something. biggrin.gif
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Netley Lucas
post Nov 21 2018, 12:38 AM
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QUOTE (vsberlina @ Nov 20 2018, 11:13 PM) *
If the politicians took it to a referendum and then went against the people's decision, they'd have looked even more stupid.

I see it as someone deciding to suicide. Just because they want it, it doesn't make it right.
There will be severe consequences, and they will be irreversible.


The Ref was essentially a re-run of '75 with a different result! laugh.gif

I can see Brexit working well with the right leadership - people who believe in it. It's workable from a trade pov once Ireland can be sorted out.
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BRFC
post Nov 21 2018, 08:46 AM
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QUOTE (Netley Lucas @ Nov 21 2018, 01:27 AM) *
One thing's for sure though, all the (project fear) experts have been proved wrong about the economy, post-Ref > pre-Brexit. Despite Brexit jitters, the economy is strong and interest rates are rising, employment is high and the economy appears to be at full capacity, wages now rising!

I have never understood, and will never undertand people that use the surge of the global economy, after an equally predictable period of poor circumstances, to prove some kind of point on a short term like this. If there's any indication outside of job growth and such, it might just be rate of the pound sterling. And that one is under pressure. When the economic pendulum inevitably starts swining again, we'll see how much damage has been done I guess.
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Netley Lucas
post Nov 22 2018, 12:30 PM
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Some of you should read this, by Larry Elliott, economics editor of The Guardian.

We overdo our respect for the EU. Britain can flourish outside it

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2...de-left-economy

See it's not just The Spectator where you can read good Leave arguments by well respected people. Anyway let's see what May can salvage. Not much I suspect but as long as we leave I'm sure we can develop a more serious 'out' than seems on the table and that would allow business to work on the more dynamic areas of the world.
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Spurs Crew
post Nov 22 2018, 12:38 PM
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Anyone who advocates for a no deal Brexit isn’t worth being listened to.
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Netley Lucas
post Nov 22 2018, 01:08 PM
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QUOTE (Spurs Crew @ Nov 22 2018, 12:38 PM) *
Anyone who advocates for a no deal Brexit isn’t worth being listened to.


A deal at any cost? WTO tariffs are that bad? laugh.gif

BRFC, I merely shine a light on (remain) experts' gloomy predictions for this period v what actually happened. Maybe if they'd been more accurate people would trust them more? Oh. hang on, had they been more accurate Leave would have won by a bigger margin! laugh.gif

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Spurs Crew
post Nov 22 2018, 01:23 PM
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QUOTE (Netley Lucas @ Nov 22 2018, 01:08 PM) *
A deal at any cost? WTO tariffs are that bad? laugh.gif

BRFC, I merely shine a light on (remain) experts' gloomy predictions for this period v what actually happened. Maybe if they'd been more accurate people would trust them more? Oh. hang on, had they been more accurate Leave would have won by a bigger margin! laugh.gif


Imagine having the front to say that considering the lies and cheating from the Leave campaign. It DWARFS anything from the other side.
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Spurs Crew
post Nov 22 2018, 01:27 PM
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Speaking of the Guardian, how about this: https://t.co/iGFIh06aZA?amp=1

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PTC
post Nov 22 2018, 01:43 PM
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QUOTE (Netley Lucas @ Nov 22 2018, 07:30 AM) *
See it's not just The Spectator where you can read good Leave arguments by well respected people. Anyway let's see what May can salvage. Not much I suspect but as long as we leave I'm sure we can develop a more serious 'out' than seems on the table and that would allow business to work on the more dynamic areas of the world.

When valiantly defending or supporting something, I'd suggest avoiding use of the word "salvage".

Make's one think of ill-advised ventures, lost ships and lost causes.


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